Mark Thomas Comedy Product S5 E4 ‘Pester Power’

[Thomas:] He phoned us [back], Husselbee phones while we’re teaching in the class and I said, ‘Oh great. It’s Mark Thomas here from Channel 4. Uh, I’m in a North London comprehensive school. There’s about 30 children here, um, we’re discussing, sort of, adidas and, um, the the factories in Indonesia and I’m recording this call for broadcast. I’ve got a couple of speakers, nice big ones, up on the desk here. They can hear every word you’re saying.’ And there’s just silence. And he went, ‘Hello everyone. What class is this?’ Geography. I said, ‘Now the kids have got a list of questions’

(Source: trip2themoon 2001, np link).

[Student to David Husselbee, on the phone:] How would you feel if your own children were working in [an Indonesian adidas] factory?

[Husselbee:] Well, if I was an Indonesian parent and, uh, my child was over 15 then, uh, and I was sure that they were doing a, a job that, that could earn the family some money then, um, I think I would allow them to do it.

[Student:] Is he saying that Indonesian parents don’t care about their children much?

[Husselbee:] No, I’m not. I’m saying that Indonesian parents realize that the best thing for their family is to make sure that they, they’re able to earn some money.

[Mark Thomas] Okay. The question was actually ‘are you happy to let your children do that?’

[Husselbee:] Well, my children would be too young under Indonesian law to work there. So I’d be very unhappy for them to work there.

[Thomas:] If they get to 15, would you be happy when they get to 15, would you be happy about that?

[Husselbee:] Again, if I was an Indonesian parent, uh, I would be.

[Thomas:] I mean this, there’s a lot of tutting and disbelief going on at this point in the classroom because people seem to be indicating that you’re not actually answering the question.

[Husselbee:] I think I have answered the question.

[Thomas:] Well, the question was ‘are you happy for your children to do it?’

[Husselbee:] I just said, I just said my children are too young. So the answer is no.

(Source: trip2themoon 2001, np link).

[Mark Thomas:] At the end [of the phone Q&A, David Husselbee] said ‘Look, I have to go. I’ve given you nearly an hour of my time.’ I said, ‘Well, look, can I just ask how many children are happy with all the answers here? People who thought he answered well and addressed the issues: can we just have your hands up?’ You’ve you’ve not got one hand up, I’m afraid, David. He said, ‘Well obviously I’d have preferred to have met them face to face to explain.’ I said ‘Fantastic.’ I said [to] Mr Jenkins, who is the teacher, ‘What time does term start?’ He said ‘The 8th of January.’ I said [to David Huselbee] ‘Are you free on the 9th?’ He said ‘Yes’. I said ‘David are you free on the 9th?’ He said yes I I think I am.’ I said, ‘Great. Will you come along to the school on the ninth?’ He said ‘OK.’ I said, ‘We’ll fly in a worker from Indonesia. We’ll get someone from the European Parliament. How does that suit you?’ (Source: trip2themoon 2011, np link).

[Mark Thomas:] So [January] ninth arrives the kids are there. The MEP [Richard Howitt] is there. There’s a woman called Endang [Rokhnai] from the Urban Community Mission in Indonesia who go inspect factories, and a translator called Tatiana [Lukman]. They’re all sitting there [with] this guy [David Husselbee – Adidas-Salomon’s Global Director of Social & Environmental Affairs] (Source: trip2themoon 2001, np link)

The conference, sited at Hampstead Comprehensive School in Northwest London brought together the MEP Richard Howitt, a worker at the Urban Community Mission in Indonesia, Endang Rokhnai, the Global Director of Social and Environmental Affairs at Adidas, David Husselbee, and thirty blood thirsty teenagers, in order to discuss the conditions and pay of the workers in Adidas factories in Indonesia (Source Baxter Baine nd, np link).

[In the show] Mark Thomas showed scenes of debates held at our school … Students … demanded explanations for the poor treatment of Adidas’s workers in Indonesia (Source Tara & Emma nd, np link).

It was incredible because the kids really want to meet [Husselbee]. They really want to ask him some questions. So it’s kind of like we’re sitting there and I felt mildly sorry for the guy.

[Husselbee:] We’ve looked at the wages of the workers and on average, over the last few months, the workers havebeen taking home 700,000 rupia per month. Um, we can be sure that workers aregetting at least 25% above minimum wage

[Howarth:] 7,000 – is it? – a month.

[Husselbee:] 700,000, yeah.

[Student:] Which amounts to how much in..

[Husselbee:] Um, it’s about 85, 90 dollars.

[Student:] ..in Sterling, sorry.

[Husselbee:] Sterling? 60.

[Student:] 60 a month?

[Lukman:] The fact is the workers, uh, could get 700,000, uh, wage if they work overtime that is the reality. If they don’t work overtime, they will never get that 700,000.

[Teacher Noel Jenkins to Husselbee:] Do accept that point, that you would have to do overtime to to earn..?

[Hussebee:] Yes, it does include overtime payments. Yes, but it also includes, um, transport…

[Lukman:] because the overtime meaning that you have to work from 7:30 in the morning ’til..

[Rokhnai:] 9.

[Lukman:] ..9 in the evening. Then you can get 700,000.

[Student to Husselbee:] Don’t you think it’s morally wrong to exploit workers like that? Cos you, you have them, you bring in the poor workers and you pay them nothing, then where are they going to go from there? They can’t, they can barely provide for themselves. They have children. They’re not going to school. So then they get no education. Then they’re poor, so then they come to your factories and it’s just an ongoing vicious circle. Donb’t you think it’s morally wrong to just keep that going?

[Husselbee:] Well it’s a question of whether the glass is half full or half empty isn’t it?

(Source: trip2themoon 2001, np link)

[Student:] Why don’t you get Adidas to try and work with the Indonesian government to try and raise their minimum wage so, even … if the management pay them very little or just the minimum wage, the minimum wage will still be higher so they’ll be earning more?

[Husselbee:] I think it’s difficult for one company to influence..

[Student:] Yeah, but you said that some big companies have as much economic power as, um, whole governments and adidas probably has more than Indonesia. So why don’t you work with them to try and improve the minimum wage?

[Husselbee:] The natural partners of government in Indonesia is government, uh ,around the world. So I think it’s possible for governments to influence other governments..

[Student:] Why don’t you try?

[Husselbee:] ..as much as companies.

[Student:] Can you just try, though?

[Husselbee:] We, we do talk to governments from time to time. We haven’t done so in Indonesia..

[Student:] Why not, though?

(Source: trip2themoon 2001, np link)?

[Thomas: David Husselbee then] said, ‘Look, I have to go now.’ He said, ‘I’ve I’ve got to get a plane.’ The teacher [Mr Jenkins], he said, ‘Look, adidas is running a design-a- boot competition at the moment. You get an outline of a boot on the internet. You download it. You do your design. You send it in for the competition. And we set the children as homework the task of designing an adidas boot along the themes of the things we’ve discussed today.

[Jenkins:] If it’s okay can, I just show you [Husselbee] some of the designs that the students here have come up with?

(Source: trip2themoon 2001, np link).

[Thomas:] What the child has done here is they’ve actually put the amount … Adidas’s profits, the factory profits and how much the workers get paid in the stripes.

(Text source: trip2themoon 2001, np link; image source: Anon nd, np link).

[Thomas:] This one was perhaps my favorite because of its simplicity. And it’s called the ‘exploitation boot’. And it’s just got adidas walking on others

(Text source: trip2themoon 2001, np link; image source: Anon nd, np link. NB 6 boot designs can be found here).

The outcome? A very pale Mr Husselbee. … Again, there was no reply. But, as Mark Thomas was quick to illustrate, Adidas and their type of exploitation is only one of many (Source Baxter Baine nd, np link).

[From a student post which mentions the reading Mr Jenkins had given them for their class:] Read the report that started it all (Source: Gatten 2001, np link).

[This report begins:] Statement of Rainy Hutabarat, ‘Urban Community Mission’, Jakarta, at the European Parliament Hearing 22 November 2000 Brussels. ‘My name is Rainy Hutabarat: I am a researcher at the ‘Urban Community Mission’ (UCM) in Jakarta. The UCM maintains close links with workers in many garment and sportsshoe factories around Jakarta, many of which are supplier factories for Nike, adidas, C&A, Otto etc. The UCM runs education programmes for these workers, and also undertakes research on their labour conditions for NGOs and unions in the USA, Europe etc. For example, from January to April 1999, the South Wind Institute in Germany cooperated with us in a research project on labour conditions in six supplier factories of adidas, C&A, Otto and Quelle around Jakarta. Our study was finalized in November 1999 and published in German in a book of the South Wind Institute and the German Clean Clothes Campaign (CCC) in May 2000. One of the six factories was the Tuntex factory in Cakung, an “Export Processing Zone” in the East of Jakarta. Tuntex is a supplier of adidas. Its owner is Taiwanese. There are 1,700 workers at Tuntex, most of them women, who produce garment for Nike, Adidas, The GAP etc. I shall describe to you the working conditions at Tuntex, not only at the time of the research in January – April 1999, but also from more recent investigations in September 2000 and November 2000 … (Source: Hutabarat 2000, np link).

[A student account of the filming:] on the 9th of January 2001, we sat down in the library, opposite the senior Adidas representative in charge of social and environmental issues himself; David Husselbee. Present were around 30 students from years 9 to 11, Mr Jenkins, and a few guests: Richard Howitt MEP; Endang Rokhani and a translator from the Urban Community Mission (a factory monitoring group from Jakarta); a Channel 4 film crew and Mark Thomas – the very same Channel Four! activist comedian who had arranged for a year 9 class to speak to David on the phone a few weeks earlier. Mr Jenkins made an introduction and we were addressed by all of the speakers. Mr Howitt talked about the efforts of his department in governing fair trade and the conditions of factories in Europe and their attempts at international standards of such. There had been a conference, he said, to discuss with large multinationals including Adidas the rights and comparative conditions of the workers in such countries as Indonesia, where European law is not Recognise. Adidas was not present at this meeting, and despite being given six weeks notice, they’d protested that they’d not been warned in time … (Source: Gatten 2001, np link).

The European Parliament had a hearing about Adidas and their factories in Indonesia and the practices there and Adidas didn’t turn up and I said to [David Husselbee] ‘Why didn’t you turn up to the hearing at the European Parliament?’ He said ‘We didn’t get enough time?’ I said ‘Well, how long did you get?’ He said, ‘Oh, a few weeks.’ A few weeks! ‘You’re a…’ You can’t believe this is a multinational company and you can’t get to Brussels! You’re a sports wear company for God’s sake! You can put the shoes on and jog over in that time (Source: Thomas in trip2themoon 2001, np link).

… Then Endang spoke and told us something about the conditions of workers in those factories in Indonesia that the ECM had been to inspect. She talked about cramped dirty living, where workers from the country and their families were sharing rooms with as many as 16 people. She mentioned forced overtime and how the workers were made to work 14 hour days to earn as little as Ł1 a day. This, she explained, was only enough for a meal and travel to/from work. Workers would also, she said, be fined more than half a day’s pay for being 5 minutes late. Their wages would not allow them even little extras such as even a new shirt once a month. We were then introduced to the third speaker, David Husselbee. Very quick to tell us that he had worked for Oxfam, his words about how ‘Adidas was changing and we’re really trying to make things better’ sounded distinctly hollow after Endang’s testimony of how the real world is. ‘How long are you going to take to fix these problems?’ we said. The answer was so vague as to be pointless. In response to the accusations of forced overtime, all he could come up with was ‘There is a sign on the factory wall saying ‘Overtime is voluntary”. THAT’S IT?? A SIGN. This was completely unsatisfactory. David Husselbee spoke for a while, and said that the workers were earning, on average, 700,000rs a month ‘Nearly 25% over the minimum wage”‘ When quizzed on how much this was he replied $90 dollars. In sterling? £60. At this point Endang interrupted to say that this money was only attainable though working overtime, from 9am to 10pm. David Husselbee had to admit that this was the case. But ! we were all eager to get to a stage where we could ask him questions of our own. In fact, when Mr Jenkins asked, around 15 hands went straight up. The questions asked ranged from asking why Adidas thought the minimum wage was fair and why not use their economic influence to raise it (‘Adidas are not natural partners of governments’ he said, but a few seconds later ‘We have spoken to governments, but not in Indonesia’) to the moral issues of taking poor people from the villages and keeping them poor by not giving them enough even to send home. He claimed that the youngest person that had been found working in Adidas factories in Indonesia was only 16. Adidas’ factories, according to him, were not under their control. Then Richard Howitt turned to David Husselbee and, after stating that, as an MEP, he earns £40,00[0] a year, asked him how much he earned. The question was completely avoided. Someone asked him again, a few moments later. He refused to answer. Mark Thomas then spoke to Mr Husselbee; he asked how many inspectors Adidas had for it’s factories (23) and how many factories (over 1000) did he think this was enough? (He did, we didn’t.) Lastly, Mr Jenkins asked David Husselbee if some year nine students could give in some entries to their ‘design a boot’ competition: three designs were shown on the projector – Crudidas, bore one, with a profit graph showing in the stripes. Adidas – Walking On Others said another. I am only a shoe and yet I was made in a fourteen hour shift. David Husselbee looked as if he was beginning to get very ruffled (Source: Gatten 2001, np link).

At 11:00am, after promising to attend the next hearing at the European Parliament as though he was the most generous man in the world, he hastily said he had to leave to ahem ‘catch a plane’. hmmm. After his quick exit there was a show of hands as to who felt they had more questions to ask – about 25 hands went up. Then we got into groups and spoke personally with Mark Thomas, Richard Howitt and Endang. Richard explained how he and his committee worked towards European Fair Trade. We spoke to Endang and found out that the Unions in Indonesia are either violently discouraged (their members sacked). There is, she said, only one licensed Union in Indonesia. Lastly we spoke with Mark Thomas about what we could do to fight the injustice of those big corporations, such as Adidas, who exploit workers in such legally and economically fragile countries such as Indonesia. Boycott is the strongest method, he said!, but also important is writing letters – to CEOs and to Adidas and to anyone else we feel strongly about. “Letters from you are a powerful weapon” we were told, and he told us about a man in Africa who’d been freed only on the strength of letters from Amnesty. I personally felt empowered by this, by the thought that we can make a difference, that we all can, even you. When it came to it, we couldn’t get Adidas to say anything completely incriminating. And we didn’t expect to, PR people are trained in the art of avoiding the question, as we had seen. But he did say he’d come back! *Evil glint in the eyes of 30 fourteen-year-olds* – we’ll get you next time, Husselbee (Source: Gatten 2001, np link).

Geoff Atkinson: producer. … In the episode … where we had schoolchildren interviewing … David Husselbee … we filmed a pre- and post-watershed version, with the former having kids in the audience. And that was the one that went out (Source: Richardson 2022, np link).

Ella went along to the recording of the show! Well, before I go into detail, I’d like to say that is was really nice (sorry about the mundane word) of Channel 4 to let us come, supply the transport, keep us all watered, and have us back in time for tea. They got us there in two coaches; one even had a toilet. When we arrived, we were all given drinks, (no alcohol, unfortunately), and told to make ourselves comfortable. The show was really funny, for the TV showing they edited a part in which he described the children as being able to pin someone to the wall with one look, which I think is easily shown when they showed the things that were filmed at Hampstead school. Especially when David Husselbee came along, some of the questions were, well, do I need to say, you saw the programme! For those that didn’t, a person came from Adidas that was in charge of the conditions in the factories, and all the children verbally thrashed him! I was really amused, especially when Richard Howitt (an MEP) and Endang, a reporter from Indonesia, and even her translator had a go at him. … Over all, a good day out, and very, very funny (Source Downing nd, np link).

The [football boot] drawings are tremendous and I would like to do a story on how the kids got involved with this project and how you can see their alternative adidas posters online (Source: M b nd, np link).

I saw the show and really enjoyed it – I thought the kids were excellent, and asked some very telling questions (I’m a fan of the [Mark Thomas] show, and was at the recording). One question that I would like to have seen Husselbee ask the class (and what I would have asked them if I were in his place) was ‘How many of you will refuse to buy Adidas products again (or Nike, GAP etc. for that matter)…or at least until we can guarantee better working conditions?’ I was interested to note that nearly half of the children at the recording were wearing Adidas or Nike products. Without wanting to sound critical, the thought occurs that the single most powerful weapon those children (and the rest of us) have is the cash in their pockets. Criticising Adidas on the one hand, but contributing to their profits on the other is hypocritical. I’d be interested to know if the children were asked about this (maybe it was edited), and if so what was their response (Source: M a nd, np link)?

Hopefully those kids will now think twice before they buy Adidas (Source: @HaploidCell 2013, np link).

Cudos to those kids. Those were some hard questions. i kind of feel bad for the CEO, though, because that’s a battle he cannot win. Either he’d be losing an argument against a bunch of 10-year-olds OR he wins, in which case he is the mean adult who uses his superior intelectual skills and experience to crush the spirits of the children. Either way he looks bad (Source: @Basilzaharoff1 2013, np link).

As I understand it, Nike is doing many of these people a favor by paying them at a competitive rate for their country, and allowing them to eat so they can live. I wish everyone could have American standards of living, but as of right now there are no easy solutions (Source: Ventinari 2001, np link).

The real harm here is not the low pay of the sweatshops, but the side effects that it causes. Let me elaborate on this just a little bit more: If a child must work all day to earn enough money to eat then the child cannot goto school (or something similar) to learn a better trade. This means that they will be stuck working in low paying jobs for the rest of there life. Which also means that their children will also have to work all day to earn enough money to eat and the whole cycle repeats itself. To solve the problem, all that nike (and other companies) would have to do is pay decent wages to their workers. This way the parents in the family and possible the older children would be the only ones who would need to work to earn enough money. This would then enable the children to goto school and become more skilled. As this cycle continued over the course of several generations, then the work force would become more and more skilled, and thus earn better pay. Another thing wrong with the ‘they get what they need’ theory is what happens when people get sick or nature destroys peoples communities. What happens in these cases? They are only making enough money to eat, so how are these people suppose to pay for good medical care or pay to build their communities back after a natural disaster? The problem with sweatshops is not that they pay enough to sustain a person (barly), but it is that they take away peoples ability to better themselves and they pay so little that people cannot cope with things that disrupt their normal lives (such as sickness or natural disasters) (Source: Ranok 2001, np link).

The film was at its best when tackling concrete issues such as wages and the company’s defence of child labour. … [But] Thomas … believes a broad opposition movement can only fight on the most elementary issues. He does not see the formation of a perspective for that movement as being essential to any step forward. When the … SEP [Socialist Equality Party] member rose to speak he said, ‘You can all leave now if you want. Here comes the politics.’ Later he added, ‘What is important was to build a mass movement’. Thomas … holds the view that what is important is the number of people you get protesting, not what they are protesting about (Source: Bond 2001, np link).

On 22nd November 2000 the European Parliament Development and Cooperation Committee held a Public Hearing into the baby food industry. IBFAN and UNICEF made presentations. MEPs were shocked and outraged when Nestlé refused its invitation to make a presentation on the monitoring process it claims to have put in place to ensure compliance with the marketing requirements. For further information contact Richard Howitt MEP, who arranged the Hearing … Adidas was investigated at the same Hearing and also refused to attend. On the Mark Thomas Product on Channel 4 Television this week (25th January), David Husselbee, Global Director of Social and Environmental Affairs, Adidas, said: ‘With hindsight we accept that we should have been at the meeting in November’. So far Nestlé has made no such admission (Source: Brady 2002, np link).

[David Husselbee to MEP Richard Howitt at the end of the programme:] With hindsight we, we accept that we, we should have been at the meeting, um, in November and, uh, we’ve written to the chairman to say that we would attend the next meeting, um, and that we would be very keen to, to meet you in Brussels and to discuss how we can participate in this debate about what the role of international companies is, um, in developing countries (Source: Husselbee in trip2themoon 2011, np link).

I still have such fond memories of [Mark Thomas] educating schoolchildren about the sweatshops that helped make many of their trainers before getting the number of a CEO (the company was either Nike or Adidas, I think) and allowing all of the kids to call up and leave a message on the guy’s answering machine (Source: Tylerandjack 2013, np link).

[In 2022] during lockdown, [Thomas] and producer Geoff Atkinson hosted a look back at the Mark Thomas Comedy Product …. Hilarious and controversial in equal measure, he doesn’t believe it would get commissioned now’ (Source: McRoberts 2022, np).